I have known for some time that lots of people that don't generally like D&D (even the story game crowd) seem to like D&D 4th.

So, what about it? Anyone that can explain and/or has some good videos or articles I can get the information from?

Tbh I don't think I'll ever play either way (too many games, and I don't even like fantasy) but who knows! Also, might be able to get ideas for other games or whatever.

@hardcorenarrativist I feel like it hits some of the same points as Champions: the dice build a pretty good story framework that you can flesh out easily even if you're only a novice/mediocre roleplayer. And if you're not, well, creativity of constraints effect is good too. It levels the playing field.

(The downside is the only story they really tell is the action/fight scene.)

The key to 4e is, I think that the rules are still fun as a pure non-roleplaying game.

@gamehawk (assuming you have the patience to answer more questions! 😊) Oh, how come? What's different in the dice in 4th?

I seem to recall reading that D&D4 was extremely tactical, almost a board game/wargame. Is that what you mean by "fun as a pure non-RP game"?

(But I realised I can search for "Why I love D&D4" or similar on YouTube, I'll start watching here and there to try to get a picture)

@hardcorenarrativist Yeah, it's very tactical. (I have heard of people who play it theater-of-the-mind 😕🤷) But not *too* tactical; again, very Champs-like, or maybe on a certain level Car Wars-y: you *could* run a "Car Wars campaign" but then again you could treat it as a pure boardgame.

It is also very very good at hitting the sweet spot of feeling like your characters are at risk when there are actually a lot of off-ramps player or DM can take to avoid killing them off, if that makes sense.

@gamehawk It almost sounds like how I *imagine* the Dark Souls (or Bloodborne) board games to be 😄

Sounds intriguing, although it a boardgamey way.

Is it basically just combat, or do the good things extend to non-combat? Combat seems to be the only thing I'm hearing about, but I need to listen to some more.

@hardcorenarrativist Almost entirely combat from what I remember, though it's been awhile since we played it.

*Not* to the degree of Gloomhaven, though; I haven't played Dark Souls or Bloodborne.

(Also Gloomhaven lacks that sweet spot; we had TPKs both scenarios and have not managed to play again, though I understand it's better with computer assistance because we may have forgotten some benefits we got. Seems just as likely we forgot monster abilities though, so...)

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